Recently, in conversation with my Jesus-pals at a coffee shop I frequent (perhaps I should stop hanging out next door to a christian youth outreach program) and in the Religion / Theology forums over at Democratic Underground, some have been asking me what evidence I would need to accept the claim that God exists. It's a legitimate question, as if there is no evidence that could convince me, then I am simply being a headstrong idealogue.
Being that it's a legitimate question, I've been giving it a lot of thought recently. I've often respond with off the cuff replies (i.e. If 80% of this country disappears, and there's no other explanation other than the rapture, then I will believe, or if CNN gets an exclusive interview with God), but the more I think about it, the more pressing the need for a sober, legitimate reply becomes. It does so for this reason: atheists like myself want nothing more than for people to honest with themselves and to make their thinking explicit. I think that this question is a reflection of my own beliefs, or in other words, the question is asking what reasons would I need to surmount the ones that I think are solid. It seems disengenuous not to answer the question in all good faith (no pun intended).
I think a useful distinction to make, for me at least, is the distinction between direct and indirect evidence. Being epistemically certain of one's sight of a snail is direct evidence of that snail's existence, whereas a snail trail (the gooey stuff they leave behind when they slither off) is indirect evidence of that snail's existence. Now I don't mean to make a comparison between a snail and God (it was just the first thing that came to my mind), but in all the conversations I believe I've ever had on the topic no one has ever been able to offer me direct evidence of the existence of God.
For example, take the question of where the matter in the universe comes from. It's indeed a tantalizing question - and it's a question to which I do not have a response. I don't know. My Jesus-pals have an answer - God created the matter in the universe. For all I know, they may be right. However, the problem I have with people offering my suspension of judgement here as proof of God is that it's indirect evidence at best. Indeed, an all-powerful being seems to be a pretty good explanation for where we came from, but it's just a "God trail" (okay, now I am comparing God to a snail: sorry theists!). It's the same thing with all other evidence I've heard for the existence of God: if science cannot answer it, then God muscles his way in. These explanations sound intuitively appealing, but the fact of the matter is that the evidence is not as convincing as the doe-eyed missionaries would have me believe. There are undoubedtly countless other explanations for these tough questions, many of which probably haven't even crossed our worried minds.
Sorry theists, but you're going to have to do better than that. I agree that God is a good explanation, but I need direct evidence. Some people might think that what I'm asking is too much - that such evidence is impossible to provide even in disciplines such as physics, etc. I think that, for overturning someone's worldview, that's exactly the kind of evidence you need. If you want me to believe that you're a friendly person, the criterion isn't that high. But if you want me to believe that consciousness is not a result of neural activity, that we have souls, that there is an afterlife, that God exists, and the whole of J-C theology - you're gonna need a whole lot more than some appealing explanations for science's tougher questions.
Is that it would then mean gods are naturalistic phenomenon and therefore subject to natural laws and thus not gods. It'd also mean they're suitable for scientific inquiry and the next thing you know some nutcase would be attempting to make themselves into god.
I cannot be convinced - which may very well be the case. I personally think that, if there is a God, he/she/it exists somewhere that is completely out of reach of our cognitive abilities - completely removed from our intellectual lives. In which case, it would be pretty much impossible for someone to give me direct evidence unless God himself were to intervene (he is all powerful, after all).
Of course then someone might wonder why I don't believe in a God. Well, I don't believe in God the way J-C / H-C traditions have described him as it seems logically impossible, given the goingson in our world. IMO, it's a logical impossibility that an all knowing, all loving and all powerful being would be responsible for or involved in the world in which we live. It's like a spherical cube - I don't believe that, definitionally speaking, it can happen.
At least that's how I tend to look at it. I suppose someone like BloodyJ would say that's what faith is all about -- that we have to have faith in God's existence, and that our knowledge of god comes through revealed knowledge. But then we get back into that naturalistic thing again, because knowledge for humans is just strengthened connections between neurons in our neocortex. Of course, then a believer would say, "but our soul is supernatural," or something like that and that there's a different kind of knowledge than worldly materialistic knowledge. And that's where I get lost. I'm a materialist. All that exists exists in the physical universe and anything that doesn't is by it's very definition nonexistent.
BTW: I don't want to speak for BloodyJ. I don't actually know what his position is on this on than he believes.
Oh, and on second thought... You're sending this in to the next Carnival of the Godless right?
You make good points. That's exactly why I, as a theist, NEVER debate the existance of God. Nor do I try to convert anyone. I'm a psych major, I know religion is a construct of society, and I know that my religion is present entirely because that's how I was brought up. Meh. I'm the peace-love-tolerance kind of Christian, so I don't see a pressing need to change. Ironically, I'm a diehard skeptic about everything pseudoscientific: Altie medicine, creationism, astrology, ESP, and other woo-woo tripe. Anyway, thank you for approaching this rationally (and very well-spoken, at that), from a fellow DUer.